Summary of “Working with a Producer” Panel Discussion

ASMP Ohio Valley's May Tech Talk

May 31, 2023

On May 9th, the Ohio Valley Chapter of the American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP) hosted a 90 minute panel discussion titled, “Working with a Producer”. The goal of the talk was to educate ASMP photographers on what value a producer adds to a photo campaign–from what they do during the bid process to the pre-production stage to production and wrap.

The target audience was ASMP photographers who have not worked with producers before.

The panel covered the following topics:

Introductions
What Is A Producer
When Do You Need a Producer
Where Can You Find a Producer
The Bid Stage
What is a Production Book
What Does a Producer Do During Production?
Discussion of Shoots
Some Things I Learned from the Talk
Further Reading/Wrap Up

This summary does not cover every single point made, but it should give you a good idea of the material covered and whether you should go on to watch the 90 minute Zoom recording. The link to the full Zoom video is here, but if you want a nice outline of the key points, you can save time and read the summary below.

Introductions

The panel consisted of two Columbus-based producers, Sara Galligan and Karmen Dann, and Cincinnati-based commercial photographer (and ASMP member) Aaron Conway. Between them they have worked with major brands such as Adidas, Spotify, DSW, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, Orvis, Hollister, ESPN, Marriott Hotels, Procter & Gamble, and J.P. Morgan Chase.

I was the moderator.

What Is A Producer

“Being the backbone and just really helping everything come together all at once, while everything is in a tornado.” – Sara Galligan

Sara: “a producer is really the backbone of a production, making sure that everything's checked and tied, all the logistics are happening, you're on budget, your legal things are taken care of, your meetings are happening that need to happen. Making sure that everything's happening. They're taking their industry experience to help you land the job and do a bid and do that accurately. But also just speaking the language of all the different people in a crew, knowing the costs of things, and also managing a thousand things at once.”

Karmen: “a correct, most buttoned up job would be a producer would come in at the time of bid. They would help you bed to make sure you have everything that you need. They would help you with estimate they would help you a line item out the payment processes and they would do that by looking at the treatments. The treatment is not their responsibility, but they would help you back out the treatment from the bid guidance or the budget guidance to make sure that those two things are aligned so that the creative brief that you've gotten from the agency or the client and you're delivering what you can and what you can't be controlled from there.”

“Producers pretty much take care of it all. They handle everything and then it allows the photographers to focus on creative decisions on set and to capture whatever it is that needs to be captured.” – Aaron Conway

Aaron: Good producers help you “retain clients and keep getting work. Clients are going to think about how much they enjoyed themselves being on set”. The “client experience is handled by the producer.”

Sara: Some intangibles a producer brings “is foresight and experience. Being able to be three steps ahead of everyone and anticipate what could go wrong, what needs to happen next, fostering collaboration between everybody. Honestly, just making sure there's good vibes on set, making sure you don't have anybody that's bringing down the mood for everybody, or handling it.”

One thing I would add is that a good producer may know a lot more about all aspects of production than a photographer. An experienced producer may have lots more contacts for crew, hair and makeup, casting, location scouting, etc.

Karmen Dann did a deep dive on the producer’s specific responsibilities (10:42:03-15:45:16).

help with the estimate
help you back out the treatment from the bid guidance or the budget guidance to make sure that those two things are aligned
hiring contractors (crew, hair and makeup, wardrobe)
props, sets, location
travel
managing budget/schedule/etc
having a producer that knows how to guide and lead all these conversations is important making sure these issues are discussed well before you get to set
making sure the production has insurance and workers comp
producer is the communication layer between the agency/client, the crew, and the photographer
production book, which is the coming together of all the key information about the project, and “on the day before the shoot or a couple of days before the pre pro meeting, we say this is what we've all agreed to, correct? when everybody at the meeting is like yes! or they say no! or they have questions”
client hand-holding

Sara: “I would highly recommend to everyone to look at @anonymousproducer on Instagram because I think it just really helps you get a funny view of the stuff that producers deal with on the daily.”

Sara and Karmen both pointed out that a producer may have their own team to help run things. It’s not always just a single producer who makes up the production team.

When Do You Need a Producer

We started this section by reviewing images from four shoots by Aaron Conway and asking the audience to guess which shoots were done with a producer based on the images.

The shoots were from:

Brooks Running
Heartless Bastards Album
Bourbon Brand
Martha Stewart at App Harvest

Aaron reviewed the specifics of each shoot and explained why they did or did not have a producer. He explained that on the more complex shoots he could not have done them successfully without a producer because there were too many moving parts for him to be able to focus on the creative and to manage all the logistics.

Working with Producers

How Do You Find a Producer?

Word of mouth.

Ask a friend.

I realized ASMP Ohio Valley should do some collaborating with local producers to help get their names out to membership. Note to self: come up with some future networking events for photographers and producers.

In addition, there are sites like Freelance Art Producer and podcasts like Dear Art Producer, both put together by rep Heather Elder. I also just watched ASMP Minneapolis’s Panel on the State of the Industry and they mentioned there is an Art Producer’s group on Linked In and there is a FB group called wheresspot (https://www.wheresspot.com), where “where Ad Agency creators, producers, and decision makers meet up with the people who produce the content they need”.

How does a producer decide to work with you if they don’t know you?

Karmen: “Jump on the phone, get a vibe check.”

Sara: “My three biggest questions are going to be, tell me about the project. What's the budget? What's the producer rate? Give me details on it. And also a vibe check.”

What Does a Producer Cost?

Karmen: “Depending on the size of the shoot or the market that you're in, a general line producer for a photo shoot is anywhere between 800 and 1200 a day.”

The Bid Stage

Some of the bid stage was already covered under “What is a Producer”.

Here, Aaron noted that the best producers he works with are good at estimating, at determining whether “we need to put a little bit more money on this or or take money away from other things”.

Is the producer hired to help with the bid, or does the producer go in with the photographer on the bid as a speculative project and if they get the job, they get paid through the job?

Karmen and Sara both said that freelance producer’s are in typically in the same boat as the photographer. They are approaching the project hoping to win the business and don’t get expect to get paid if they don’t. One producer estimated that she has gotten abou 50% of the jobs she has helped bid.

Sara added “my hope would always be to be brought in at the screening or bidding time, because then you know that I've access.”

There are producers who also act as pricing consultants, who will help a photographer prepare a bid but will not work on the project as a producer (typically because the project budget doesn’t have a producer role). At the end of the discussion, I listed two pricing consultants I have used who did not produce for me, just advised on my estimate.

Karmen added a point about agents: If you have an agent, your agent is the one going back and forth with the client on the bid. If you don’t have an agent, your producer is the one doing the client back and forth.

What is a Production Book

In What is a Producer, Karmen discussed what a production book is–the bible of the production–and in this section we looked at the contents of one such book with Annie Martineau, who joined us to review a pre-pro deck she worked on for a project she was creative director on in New York. For the sample Annie reviewed with us, it was “one day shoot and we hit about five locations”, which, she added, “is crazy.”

Annie refers to the production book as “outlining the mood, the locations, basically every every single detail you could think of before you get to the shoot. They're getting that all out in front before the shoot even begins and getting everyone on the same page.”

A production book contains everything from:

Shotlist
Call sheets (which Karmen noted “we all hate”)
Mood boards
Style Guides
Wardrobe Guides
Location information
Daily schedule
Contact information
Permits
COI
Talent Information
Deal memos

and more.

It’s having all the information about the project at your fingertips.

“A production book should be built so well that, in the event that you (the producer) are not there, anyone can pick this up and know exactly what’s going on.” – Blaine Deutsch

“Communicate early and often will lead to an excellent production shoot…so that when we get to the space, we can make some magic, makes some happy mistakes, and try not to go into overtime.” – Annie Martineau

Proedu.com has a set of videos by Blaine Deutsch on Production Tips For Any Photoshoot & Commercial Production. He has a 5:59 length video focusing solely on the Production Book.

There is a plethora of terms and fine distinctions. Some use the term pre-pro deck. Some use the term production book.

Screen shots were also included from a few other shoots.

What Does a Producer Do During Production

Karmen: “90% of your job should be done when the when the job starts.”

Karmen: “Every single job is different. So you'll see producers standing with the client or that agency, whether it's the photographer and do their thing right. So that could look anything like hand-holding, that could look like babysitting or that could look like just relaying the information. Just helping manage the flow of the notes that will come to the photographers that they can, you know, set up and get their shot.”

Producer must also deal with contingencies

Karmen:”So if you have an outdoor shoot, you're looking at the weather nonstop. Ten days out, nine days out, it is out. Ideally, you have a weather contingency plan that you've started having conversation with between the photographer and the agency client.”

How are contingencies like the weather usually accounted for in the terms and conditions or in the budget itself?

Karmen: If you have to give a firm bid for weather contingency, it's for one day and it's based on the things that are non-negotiable or non-negotiable. But so it's not like 75% or 80 is just kind of like this will be the amount of money if this gets weird, right?

Discussion of Shoots

Looked at three images from shoots the panelists worked on and talked a little about each shoot.

Q&A

During the discussion, people several questions, including:

Q: “My experience in working with eight different producers is that if my creative fee is 40,000, I generally pay my producer 40,000.” Is this correct?

A: The producer’s said no if by $40,000 it meant all $40,000 went to the producer, vs the producer distributing that to crew and to cover production costs like permitting and crafts and services.

Q: “Can you expound on what the difference is between a producer, a project manager, or a consultant who would come in at the start at the bidding?”

A: Consultant is typically a pricing consultant. If you have a producer, you won’t typically also have a pricing consultant. Project manager is not a term typically used in photo shoots. On a photo shoot, the line producer is the closest thing to a project manager.

Q: “Although not a photo rep, how important is a producer to to somewhat be the face of your brand?”

A: All three agreed having a good producer is huge for your brand. They can make you look very good, or not good at all. (In the first section on what is a producer, the panelists said producers make sure everything operates smoothly, on-time, on-budget, that all details are taken care of, and that the client needs are addressed at all stages.

Q: “Does client typically review images on set?”

A: Sara: Yes.

Q: “Difference between a treatment and creative brief”

A (Karmen): “A creative brief is what you should get from the agency or the client when they reach out to you. It's the information as they have gathered it. So the client provides one to the agency and then the agency makes one.”

“[Whether] you're getting the brief either from the agency or the client, you make a treatment. So if the job is picking apples in South Carolina with Martha Stewart–sorry. Top of mind–you're going to say what your approach for this is based on the information of the brief. You would have the producer help guide any questions…you start curating what your approach for this would be and that would be lighting, that would be texture, that would be casting.”

“You might say like, well, I would really like to do this with a family. Or you might say, I really want it to be like a multiracial couple. I want it really want to be a group of friends. Right? But you would create like a narrative to it. And that's how if you're in the bidding process for triple bid, you're letting them know, like, I should get this because I'm bringing something unique to it.”

Some Things I Learned from the Talk

A good producer
- makes the production run smoothly
- keeps a good vibe on the set
- helps the photographer create a more accurate bid
- allows the photographer to focus on the creative part of the job
- improves the client’s overall experience.
- makes the photographer look good.
As Aaron said, good producers help you “retain clients and keep getting work. Clients are going to think about how much they enjoyed themselves being on set”, and “client experience is handled by the producer.”
Producer rates (your mileage may vary based on location): $800-$1200/day
Bring the producer on before the client bid. The producer wants to see the client brief.
Karmen talked about “vibe checks” in discussing whether she wants to work with someone–a good reminder to photographers that you are competing not only on if you can create compelling images that meet your clients needs but can be someone good to be around on set. Work can be hard, but work can also be fun or stimulating or inspiring, and your own spirit as a photographer on set will influence the client and crew’s experience.
- This is reinforced by Frank Meo’s quote from our Nov 2022 webinar when he said “Estimating is less about numbers and more about connecting.”
The producers on our panel, Karmen Dann and Sara Galligan, and photographer Aaron Conway, were very generous with their time and knowledge and I’m sure brighten every production they work on. I hope to work with them on something some day.
After the session, I followed up with the panelists on an issue I have with one of my jobs relating to property releases in NYC. The next morning I got a reply from Karmen Dann, sharing some contacts in NYC I should reach out to, proving that a) Karmen is as generous with her knowledge off the panel as on, and that b) producers really are problem-solvers, and part of their value is not just their ability to manage a project to completion but their network of contacts across a wide range of skills needed for successful production.

Ben’s Substack

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